If Trump is Elected, Where Should You Move?
This is a very cool exercise that I heartily recommend.
It says I’m headed for The Netherlands, which is not a bad recommendation. A healthy public sector that is quite progressive on environmental and other issues. The country is very clean and beautiful; lots of incredible museums–and they really love good beer. Also, extremely open-minded; if you’re not hurting someone else, they really couldn’t care less what you do there. The language is a beast, though.
If Trump is elected, I will stay right here and hope for the best. For most of us, moving to another country is not an option as most people would quickly realize if they actually considered it and weighed all the difficulties that moving would entail.
Obviously if he actually succeeded in doing some of the things that he seems to want to do, there would be serious problems. However, the president is not a dictator. If Congress has any sense, which may be debatable, they could hamstring Trump and make it impossible for him to implement most of his destructive ideas.
Congress controls the purse strings. Congress could cut off all the funds for the destructive things that Trump might attempt, and that’s only a start. But whether Congress would have the necessary sense to do what is necessary to control Trump is questionable.
Craig,
It’s hardly a praiseworthy ambition for a citizen of nation whose government is constituted by freely elected representatives, to throw a tantrum and go into exile simply because the candidate of your choice doesn’t get elected.
Nor is it respectful to your fellow citizens whom you would expect to stay and live with an administration formed by a candidate of your choice.
But more importantly, it displays the attitude of spoiled child crying,” if I can’t win, I’ll take my bat and ball and go home” !
As Frank sensibly points out, the US President has limited power, and the US system has numerous check and balances to contain and restrict the power of the President’s office.
Since he is unlikely to win, the question of leaving seems a bit pointless.
Yes, it IS pointless, and this was largely a joke. Sorry that wasn’t clear. I’m not moving anywhere (though there will be people who do).
Yes, he’s going to lose, and yes, he would have limited power in any case.
The only serious point I would make here is that his capacity to nominate right-wing extremists to the US Supreme Court (the laws from which will affect all Americans for decades) and his authority over the US military has all decent and rational people terrified. But again, he’s going to lose.
Craig,
I understand 🙂 Although, the Netherlands has it’s fair share of political extremists, terrorists and assassins.
Presidential nominations still gain Congressional approval, and the Military has it’s own way of dealing with difficult presidents.
The appointment of Judge Earl Warren by President Eisenhower is good example that appointments made for political purpose can backfire.
“Many people consider the things government does for them to be social progress but they regard the things government does for others as socialism” Judge Earl Warren.
Craig,
I also expect Trump to lose, and possibly by a landslide. However, I am less sure than I would like to be.
His running and nomination may not be a bad thing. The support he is getting calls attention to unsolved problems which have not been adequately addressed. Among the problems are a serious maldistribution of income and persistent prejudices. So, some good may come of this if it results in adequate attention being given to the problems.
I look at Trump as a textbook proto-fascist: feeding on fear that our nation is under siege by “other” groups, the idea that the country is lawless, nostalgia for a (nonexistent) time of national former glory, and admiration of totalitarian regimes.
Now one can argue that with either Trump or Clinton we’ll continue to have endless wars, our civil liberties will be further eroded, and the corporatocracy will further erode whatever little power represented by the will of the people. But having a fascist running the most powerful nation on the Earth is really unthinkable; it is for this reason that I think it’s irrational to equate Trump with Clinton (virtually regardless of how dishonest she may be).
Craig you seem to label Trump a “Facist” based upon his attacks on minorities, but the term also has been defined as rule by corporations. As a mouthpiece for corporations Clinton could also be labeled a Fascist. http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/List_of_forms_of_government
For all his faults I see Trump as a politically weak individual who would be subject to popular opinion. He wants to be liked by most people so he has marginalized some. It is a dangerous trend, but it is a playground tactic. I don’t think it runs as deep as the hysteria over his utterances. He simply doesn’t have the roots and too many people don’t want to listen to him. The overall approach I see is one of not being serious. It is a bit of a game.
Clinton however has many times demonstrated a disdain for popular opinion in favor of the backroom deal. That she has managed to coerce the DNC into election fraud is in itself a frightening display of personal power. She is known to keep a good and bad revenge list that will likely put personal policy ahead of public good. She is a power broker and would be dangerous enough not in office. She is the demon that some see in Trump. Overall she seems deadly serious. The most deadly enemy is the one who pretends to be a friend. Ie: The lier.
Just as you feel so strongly against Trump, so a case could be made against Clinton.
Craig,
The oratory employed by Trump maybe a little reminiscent of fascist rhetoric, however the same could be said of any populist politician.
Calling Donald Trump a fascist is an unhelpful and inaccurate exaggeration. Trump is not demanding changes or abolition of the US Constitution, or political institutions to allow totalitarian, authoritarian nationalism. He shows no desire to pursue the tenets of national syndicalism.
In fact, Trump’s message is vaguely libertarian. His main desire is to restore America to the optimistic nation of the late fifties and early sixties.
At the worst, he wants a domestic ‘Pleasentville’ , and a return to the isolationist US policies of the mid thirties.
His acceptance of Vladimir Putin is understandable, even pragmatic. Putin’s Russia no longer threatens the US, and Putin is at least someone reliable with whom to negotiate, in contrast to the unstable and erratic chaos of pre-Putin Russia.
None of this matters since Trump has run out of money and has no means of defeating the heavily funded, logistically superior Democratic Party campaign machine.
Craig it must be the Good Rain that is falling but Frank and Marco and myself are in agreement.
Best to stick it out and participate with the other good citizens and Stem the trump tide , doubt it will happen
Darn, If I thought he might really win I would send a long letter of introduction to Marco Polo as the Land Down Under may provide a new platform for New Horizons.
Of course that depends on if Marco would want to bring a Sicilian to Aussie Land!
everyone take care
@ Silent,
The State of Victoria has a long history of Sicilian migration. In the valley where I farm, we have a large Italian community, with a very active social club (of which I’m a member),
Benvenuto in Australia !
Craig, posting a piece about leaving the country seems to continue a reactionary narrative or an understanding of what is happening.
I came across this video a few days ago. I don’t see it as an endorsement for either candidate however the author was putting forth his rational for betting in favor of Trump winning over Clinton based upon an analysis of their techniques. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LibRNYJmZ-I
The channel makes interesting viewing in you want to understand the reasons behind what you are seeing. I am familiar with the techniques described but have never before heard them so clearly described. As the polls changed the same channel put out more information explaining the shift.
Part of that explanation includes the suggestion that Trump has used his outrageous remarks as a method of branding. Consistency and dedication to any particular policy was thrown completely out. If this is accurate then we have no idea what Trump truly believes other than a quest for power.
What does become clear is that the candidates are pursuing different methods to achieve essentially the same goal. One makes some attempt at policy stands that are wildly inconsistent with past actions, while the other is simply positioning based upon far less history. I don’t trust either of them and consider them both essentially self serving and would make a poor “public servant.”
Trump, although he is not a comedian, has some of the qualities of a stand-up comedian in that he plays to the audience. Basically, he is putting on an act, just as stand-up comedians do. He flip flops so much that it’s almost a medical miracle that he isn’t dizzy. It may be that most, or at least many, of the people in his audiences are there to be entertained.
It will be interesting to see how the political theorists analyze the Trump phenomenon after the election.
Revelations of the T Shirt Agenda ! cool
Breath on Wind states it real well as far as Trump versus Hillary .
America deserves much better as Both very flawed – Trump is irrelevant and I can’t begin to take him serious. A draft dodger who tried to act so Patriotic tonite during the TV interviews with all the Veterans and military folks. What a scam. He dodged the Vietnam war with phony medical deferments multiple times. His kids have never signed up for any Civic related duty.
Tonight on National TV – His ugly american arrogance rings loud and clear almost Neo Colonial when he says we go to Iraq and take the OIL and bring it home. to the victors belong the spoils ! Likes Putin etc.
Craig is not far off in throwing the Fascist label on him he is a lot of many things all DARK.
What is sad is the number of Americans who are so mad they turn to his Big Lie and Comic strip act or they fall for it. I feel less safe when dumb soldiers who have guns proudly proclaim that the trumpster is their savior, the leader and he tells it like it is.?!?!?!?
Its No Wonder we dont win any wars, these soldiers are dumb cannon fodder beyond cannon fodder.
The Trump phenom perhaps:
It does say that things need a serious changing in the good ol USA and the public is upset and there are many good reasons for us to be upset but as Breath said – he said it well even with Hillary and all her Polish and experience , we will still lose more rights and more deals will be cut for the inside crowd and our compromises will be further compromised. Most Dems I know say that but she is the lessor of the Evils and they are both by products of our broken system and sick culture.
She has some good qualities but she has been part of the Corrupted Elite that have allowed us to decline.
To heal – America needs a Structural Reformation and not just a cosmetic makeover.
Maybe more good citizens from all sides will step up and get involved in CIVICS and we revitalize our society- but that is only my wish as I actually don’t see Good Civics returning but iI still have some Aspirations !
Silent,
You seem to be very confused. you criticize Donald trump for being a draft dodger during the Vietnam era, when most American youth were desperate not to serve in the military, then revile the current generation of service personnel for their service to their nation.
It might interest you to know that since 1815, the US military has never lost a war or been defeated.
Sniggering at servicemen is a very cheap, and pretty contemptible pastime.
“It might interest you to know that since 1815, the US military has never lost a war or been defeated.”
I have heard this before. When Vietnam is mentioned the retort is that it was not a “declared war.” In fact, “The United States had Not filed a Declaration of war against any nation since June 05, 1942.” http://www.ptsdsupport.net/war_powers_act.html
So the statement depends upon a narrow definition. But even during declared wars there have been many battles where the US has lost. The greatest portion of the Civil War was a string of one defeat after another if you take the side of the North as the US.
Although the “Great Wars” were “won” it was not necessarily through great military genius but economic might. We continue to be a nation that “doesn’t like to lose” and this fear for security (and private greed)has lead the US to spend about 1/2 its overall budget for military spending, more than the next 11 nations combined. About 1/3 of the world’s spending on the military is by the US. At the same time, the Pentagon can’t account for about 6.5 trillion dollars in spending. https://www.mintpressnews.com/audit-pentagon-cannot-account-6-5-trillion-dollars-taxpayer-money/219246/
What if instead, we were to spend even 1/2 that money on creating a green economy and social services. Single payer health care. done Social security, funded. College free for all, paid. A new HVDC national network, no problem. Offshore wind farms, Grid level power storage, Electrify all passenger and commercial rail traffic. very easy. Modernize the grid and Electrify roadways…
Would we be any less secure? We could perhaps improve our standard of living while reducing carbon emissions?
I don’t think that “servicemen” (or any other public servant) should be denied support, but perhaps we should not be entirely blind to what is being spent with “support” as only an excuse for private greed.
We have never had a president who was not flawed in some ways. Even presidents who have been looked upon vary favorably by history have been flawed.
Some people look back upon FDR almost as if he were a saint. However, he approved incarcerating Japanese – Americans during the second world war, an incarceration upon which we now look back upon with shame. He also attempted to pack the Supreme Court.
People also look back upon JFK almost as if he were a saint. However, he increased our involvement in Viet Nam, an involvement which actually began with Eisenhower. Nixon and Johnson get about 100% of the blame for it by people who ignore the rôles of JFK and Eisenhower.
I could go on and on in this vein because there are many more past presidents whom I could list who are now seen favorably in spite of some of the ghastly things they have done.
The fact is that we will NEVER have a president who is not flawed in some manner. Mrs. Clinton certainly does have flaws; about that there can be no question. Whether she is actually more flawed than average is questionable. But Trump certainly is far more flawed.
A great deal of truth there.
So I was trying very hard not to respond to this but Craig’s comment begs for a correction.
Frank you are repeating a lot of often mentioned superficial and so inaccurate examples. I don’t question your general statement that lauded figures can have flaws. Personally Kennedy seemed to have a rather active libido. But when it came to policy he had come to appreciate Eisenhower’s admonition against the “military industrial complex” Had he not been assassinated there were two actions pending: pull us out of the Vietnam war and eliminate some subsidies to the petrochemical industry. There are theories that suggest he was killed in part because of these things. Johnson reversed these policy shifts within days after the assassination.
There is a term “anachronism” which suggests something out of place in time. When we judge FDR according to our standards today it could be considered an anachronism. A little search tells me that the correct term is “presentism” https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presentism_(literary_and_historical_analysis)
It is awkward to defend acts considered despicable today but the world was then in a crazy place. Germans were putting Jews in concentration camps. In the US, Germans were not interned but Germany did not give FDR a problem with a sneak attack on US soil. People were looking for enemies over their shoulders. Under the right circumstances a similar event could happen today.
Earlier, FDR’s economic policies aimed at helping a recovery during a depression, were under threat by the US Supreme court. He pushed back by threatening to pack the court.
A better example might be Truman who is given credit with dropping the bomb and “saving American lives.” Documents have shown however that Japan was about to surrender and the bombs were dropped to demonstrate to Russia our military might so they would think twice about a further war of conquest.
Although Truman advertised “the buck stops here” on his desk people seem to expect that every president knows everything and are responsible for every action that takes place during their term. The truth may be a bit less than this.
It is also a misconception that very often the history you get in school is what was happening at the time. “History is written by the winners…” There are also revisionists who want to besmirch inspiring historical figures often to their own aggrandizement. So perhaps the only thing we can say for sure is that people either ignore history or tend to use some version of it to their own advantage. Occasionally they will find some truth and inspiration in it.
Unfortunately we are likely to see whoever wins say that they have a “mandate” for their agenda as evidenced by the popular vote. In fact, many are likely to vote for one person out of revulsion for the other candidate.
At this point, what might work against this and still send a message would be a heavy vote for a third party candidate, either libertarian or green party respectively Gary Johnson or Jill Stein.
Unfortunately it is often a matter of whom to vote against rather than for whom to vote for. This most definitely is not the first time nor will it be the last time.
Breath,
The serious bad things that a person has done are not negated by the good things. What I was pointing out was that people have both good points and bad points, including presidents. To ignore the bad points and imply that it is wrong to mention them makes no sense. Also, I limited myself to mentioning only the bad things related to performance in office and excluded reprehensible personal behavior which was unrelated to performance in office.
I am sufficiently old that it was not in school that I learned the points I mentioned. In school, nothing was mentioned in American history about FDR’s approving incarcerating the Japanese Americans. At the time, there were people who saw that for the evil it was. And, some who acquiesced soon realized the evil that had been done and repented, including Earl Warren. Unfortunately, you are correct in stating that something similar could happen today. JFK was not elected until years AFTER I took American history in high school, so my outlook on JFK was in no way affected by high school American history.
The fact remains that NO president or presidential candidate is perfect, even allowing for the fact that they do not have all knowledge. I see nothing improper about pointing that out and providing examples.
Frank, we could debate the issue of which candidate is more flawed, but the topic is somewhat foul.
It is a bit sad that we are not inspired by either campaign to discuss who has the better vision.
Quite true.
@ Breath On the Wind
Thank you for your earlier post with the link to the website and great article on the Trillions of dollars of Waste in the Military Industrial complex.
That sector is one of the most Evil aspects of America and how we have been seduced and burdened by the war and death industry. The economic burdens are what is bankrupting our society on multiple levels , not just economic.
Hopefully the NFL players protests will spread and raise civic consciousness to the over militarization of our society and how we are being conditioned to a new normal of constant wars.
@ Marco And yes we the US has lost many wars, battles since WW 2.
The biggie is Vietnam – and if you are attached that well that is your right you fought there. But we lost and killed over 10,000,000 million or more mostly innocent people. Plus close to 60,000 of our guys. Lots of homeless Vietnam vets roaming around or rotting away in some prison, many for profit too ! So the evil lingers on!
I lost high school friends to that madness and I almost went myself. Thank my Stars!
In fact the only things we win are lil excursions like Grenada, Panama( after we grew tired of our CIA partner and the corrupt actions involved there ) .
Ronnie boy Reagan got close to 300 Marines blown up in their camp and he then Cut and Ran ( yes Breath On the Wind – those GOP gomers have a inconsistent Re Revisionist History version of many things) including Cut and Run as Ronnie boy ran as fast as hell to get out of Lebanon.
We have not won in Korea Iraq nor in Afgansistan either. Despite, All our super carriers , missiles, airplanes , and other super weapons. Not only ours but our allies. Our Arrogance and Shock and AWE withstanding !
Our so called hero soldiers who have been re labeled Warriors in some post Vietnam War effort to justify war, sanitize violence and killing . drone operators now killing themselves and suing the DOD , on it goes.
Well these Warriors roam around and kill civilians, themselves and some of these Derelict angry white morons turn into terrorists and blow up buildings in their rage and kill many innocent people.
So the Sorrows of Empire Chalmers Johnson – are too many to name but there is a continuing theme to all of it.
Go read The Sorrows of Empire it will take a few bottles of good wine and but you will find some Inconvenient Truths about America’s flawed and corrupted foreign policy actions since the end of WW 2.
I have no shame in labeling some of our soldiers as morons and derelicts as many are. In the last month our local base has had 4 murders, 3 child sex abuses cases, and 4 soldiers running drugs cross country. Also 5 more sex abuse incidents. plus numerous ongoing investigations for missing people , murders etc.
The whole barrel of apples is not corrupt – yet – but there are many many rotten apples. A reflection of our society as the quality of the servicemen tends to Mirror the Greater Society.
Lets face it, We got issues that the Star Spangled Banner and a Jet Flyover cant save us from ….oh well…
These are the consequences of the Wages of WAR /SIN to put it in a Spiritual context. My counselor friends work w some of these basket cases who are broken people. They observe them as they sober up just enough from the johnny got his gun escapade crusade to go kill Arabs.
When they sober up they tend to self destruct thus the high level of suicides like 22 per day in the USA. They realize they were duped and used and Exploited for CORPORATE PROFITS and Not Some Freedom Mission ! They have read the suicide notes.
Breath on the Winds article really sheds light on how the Defense dept money is wasted and the real needs for Veterans are not met. The GOP waves the flag and talks a rah rah false chicken hawk patriotic game. But they cut the Veterans VA agency budget continuously and that is from the veterans groups that take the time to follow the votes. GOP is great at covering up their bad votes . So people still stay bought in. But they Hurt the VETS just like Trump has already tried to hurt the VETS with his phony charity donations that he did not make until he was Called Out.
So take your complaint to the Gomers and Trump Marco.
So not a drop of guilt on my part, actually smiling for the Road to Enlightenment is Good. My dying father a veteran of 5 Beach Landings had schooled me well as he saw the Bush lies and false war drums beating and he predicted serious bad results for the Us and the Region.
The daily news and the fact we are still bombing and the dying is still going on is testament that we have not Won. Unfortunately too many people are still stuck on the wrong side of History and refuse to evolve.
As for Trump the Trumpster fraudster and too many other bad things to waste time on. He was a draft dodger and now he plays the Chicken Hawk Role real well and the Morons eat it up , watching those dumb soldiers the other nite in the aircraft carrier rationalizing their vote for him is a real classic case of Cognitive Dissonance in action. Serving the Hangman! Pitiful fools!
I watched with 2 Vietnam Vets 3 years there and they feel even stronger against the war machine America has become. It will be our downfall from within we fear.
Our economy the cause of Sustainability and greater Social and Economic Justice for our people could be much better served and we would have more prosperity too if we would Reduce our Collective Addictions to the War Myth!
As others have said both candidates are Flawed , I am no fan of Hillary but Trump will accelerate the road to Ruin.
We can only blame ourselves for these poor choices for Leadership.
Amen
@ Silent,
You are entitled to your opinions regarding your choice of US politicians and US policy.
However, you are not entitled to rewrite history to suit your own purposes, and defame the sacrifice of US military personnel who guarantee your freedom to hold and express those freedoms.
The US military has not lost a war since 1815. The US and it’s allies didn’t lose a single battle in Vietnam. The US military can’t be held responsible for decisions made by civilian governments.
In every war there are mistakes made by strategists, and even individual commanders, unfortunately this is part of a learning process and often it’s only the determination, bravery and quality of discipline among the combatants that staves off defeat and catastrophe.
It’s a sad truth that all returning soldiers from smaller wars, particularly unpopular wars, have always been treated shabbily by governments and civilians who resent the expense.
Just because the military is often deployed as the result of questionable government policy decisions, or required to confront and deal with newly evolving types of warfare, often in incomprehensible situations, doesn’t mean that the US and its allies don’t have very real enemies.
Nor does it mean that loud mouthed, bar stool /armchair critics have a right to denigrate the service personnel who risk their lives and serious injury fighting ever more frighteningly dangerous wars, with no clear achievable outcomes.
The fact that the Western allies have coped with these increasingly difficult and confusing situations with great courage and only a small percentage of excessive behavior is a credit to the high standard of training, and discipline of the troops on the ground.
In 1892 Rudyard Kipling wrote his cynical poem about civilian attitudes to fate of common soldiers which is as true today as it was in 1892.
(sorry about the length)
Tommy Atkins.
I went into a public-‘ouse to get a pint o’ beer,
The publican ‘e up an’ sez, “We serve no red-coats here.”
The girls be’ind the bar they laughed an’ giggled fit to die,
I outs into the street again an’ to myself sez I:
Oh it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, go away”;
But it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play,
The band begins to play, my boys, the band begins to play,
O it’s “Thank you, Mister Atkins”, when the band begins to play.
I went into a theatre as sober as could be,
They gave a drunk civilian room, but ‘adn’t none for me;
They sent me to the gallery or round the music-‘alls,
But when it comes to fightin’, Lord! they’ll shove me in the stalls!
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, wait outside”;
But it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide,
The troopship’s on the tide, my boys, the troopship’s on the tide,
O it’s “Special train for Atkins” when the trooper’s on the tide.
Yes, makin’ mock o’ uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an’ they’re starvation cheap;
An’ hustlin’ drunken soldiers when they’re goin’ large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin’ in full kit.
Then it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, ‘ow’s yer soul?”
But it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
Oh it’s “Thin red line of ‘eroes” when the drums begin to roll.
We aren’t no thin red ‘eroes, nor we aren’t no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An’ if sometimes our conduck isn’t all your fancy paints,
Why, single men in barricks don’t grow into plaster saints;
While it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Tommy, fall be’ind”,
But it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind,
Oh it’s “Please to walk in front, sir”, when there’s trouble in the wind.
You talk o’ better food for us, an’ schools, an’ fires, an’ all:
We’ll wait for extry rations if you treat us rational.
Don’t mess about the cook-room slops, but prove it to our face
The Widow’s Uniform is not the soldier-man’s disgrace.
For it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ “Chuck him out, the brute!”
But it’s “Saviour of ‘is country” when the guns begin to shoot;
An’ it’s Tommy this, an’ Tommy that, an’ anything you please;
An’ Tommy ain’t a bloomin’ fool — you bet that Tommy sees!
Increasingly, Western soldiers are being expected to adopt the standard of behavior required of civilian police. This becomes and impossible situation, soldiers aren’t trained like police who live in a largely supportive environment.
The all pervasive media is a totally new factor in warfare that was first observed in Vietnam. Television coverage makes the viewer feel qualified to express and opinion. The coverage becomes confused with the fiction of war films, and even confuses the attitudes of soldiers.
Soldiers are not police. The soldiers task is to kill his nations enemy with the maximum of dispatch. Often this means soldiers must be ferociously brutal and develop a deep hatred and conviction that the enemy is to be despised. (or what is the soldier doing killing them?)
This is not a easy reality for civilians to accept, but remember the enemies of your country, have no such qualms.
Marco you are entitled to take great pride in your service. See it the way you believe.
But I am free to disagree with you. US lost in Vietnam and since your Australian units fought there YOU lost so get over it accept reality. Reality is all the bombing , over whelming firepower and modern weapons etc. Just like in Afghanistan and the Guerrillas Won cause they were fighting for a cause their country
Our soldiers and allied soldiers are just fighting to follow orders , your Soul is not really into it. The cause was Unjust so we lost.
The North stormed into Saigon and took the country so the fighting that us and all the other allied troops was indeed in Vain . Sad and it would have been nicer for all if we had fought the war properly and gone North all the way.
But the CIa was afraid that would trigger China and or Russian direct involvement like in Korea.
Poor Johnson inherited the war and the lies that cause the escalation and it under mined all the good he did and could have done more with the great Society Programs. So the Vietnam War which we lost also caused us to lose our own domestic war on poverty , racism and class inequality as the Vietnam War drained our resources for a bad cause . so fitting that we lost but the collateral damage on our own shores was the ongoing defeat that lingers to this day.
My friends who I hang with here at home each spent 3 years there and they feel even stronger than me about the evil waste that Vietnam was. They volunteered as they got caught up in the Blind Patriotism etc. Many regrets!
So Marco there are no arm chair warriors just enlightened veterans that have out grown the evil and darkness of the wars .
N Vietnam did nothing to hurt the US, their leader was American educated and was impressed with the part of our culture that speaks to freedom.
Just watched a 2 hr documentary on that stupid war and Johnson with 3 other people and 2 were Vietnam Vets. The film shows the truth , the lies of the Gulf of Tonkin incident that triggered escalation . The carpet bombing of innocent civilians with agent orange etc. The truth is we failed because our Mission was built on a Lie .
We created much bad Karma and America is only beginning to reap the Dark Seeds that we have sown.
When I was younger I felt different but with experience and gained Wisdom I see these past mistakes in much stronger and darker terms.,
Happy for you that you survived as your death or getting wounded would have been in Vain as the whole war was a big Lie. And WE Lost!
The shock and AWE may have toppled Saddam H in Iraq but our democracy Mission failed and the place is in chaos and part of Iran now. We wasted close to 2 trillion dollars and counting for the wounded soldiers ( they are not warriors) ongoing medical care another 1 Trillion dollars over their lifetimes will be spent and for what
Another Big Lie and just a money making opportunity for the inside the Neo Con Club none of whom ever serve in the military. So much for following dumb orders?
So we have Lost again. The American Generals who retire and tell the truth all say We Lost.
Got to give Great Britain credit, their leaders saw thru the Fog of Vietnam and they did not fight in the war they tried to warn the US but our arrogance got us.
You have every right to hold on to or cling to what ever sense of Honor you find in the Vietnam experience. That is your right.
But when the Sun comes up or Sets in the afternoon at the end of the Day WE LOST!
it Is what It is
Trump should get on his plane with some of his cowboy boosters and land in Syria w guns and take on ISIS – like George Custer at Little Big Horn – it would be a fitting end to his wretched life of exploiting others. He would get his final moment of fleeting fame and fail again! ISIS could make it so he has no bankruptcy pathway out. It would be Finito!
later thanks for the Rudyard K poem nice stuff , good in its ERA.
Korea was a draw so we did not lose as bad there.
Silent,
You only read what you what to read, don’t you ?
The US military did not lose in Vietnam. The US and allied government may have decided to change policies for political and withdraw the military, but the military never lost a single battle, it could have continued the war indefinitely.
The dynamics of the war are too complex to discuss in a few paragraphs, but essentially the Australia government changed policy and withdrew most Australian forces in 1971, undefeated.
It may surprise you to learn that South Korea also sent over 300,000 to Vietnam between 1964 to 1973. These forces were very effective and mainly engaged NVA regulars. In some engagement Lieutenant General Chae Myung-shin’s ROK Army unit were out numbered 20 or even 30 to 1 !
The success and nearly 15 to 1 kill ratio by the ROK, who also never lost a single encounter is often underrated.
The ferocity, cruelty and fanaticism of the Vietcong to their own people , was grossly under-reported. In comparison the brutally of ISIS that has shocked the world were every day occurrences by the Vietcong.
I had the honour of observing the unquestionable heroism of the ROK at both the Battle of Trà Bình and during Operation Hong Kil Dong. In both encounters the Koreans were vastly outnumbered and due to weather conditions, lacked air support. In the fighting, most hand to hand, both were absolute victories for the ROK whose kill ratio was over 25 to 1 !
It may also surprise you to learn that even after the fall of Saigon, there were still South Vietnam units fighting overwhelming odds.
Revisionist history written to agree with a political or philosophic conviction, is never accurate.
Perhaps it’s hard for a civilian to differentiate the difference between military and political accomplishments.
The US military accomplished it’s mission in Iraq. The fact that US political policy was lacking, has nothing to do with the effectiveness of the US military which lacks the training or mandate to become a colonial army of occupation.
Marco I was very aware of the fine South Korean efforts the Aussie were smart to withdraw early. Thanks for sharing their fine record with me.
In High School I was on debate team and Vietnam was the topic for 4 years sir.
All the battles aside , hells bells The South won more battles than the yanks in our civil war but lost the war.
If you want to put GOP spin on Iraq when GOP spin lied us into that un needed and futile war then that is your right. Our over whelming force and that of UK easily took down Iraqs depleted formal armed forces after 10 years of bombing and the boycotts etc.
But the insurgency took its toll on US and the Iraqis bled us down good. Our Hubris got us into major trouble and we lost and have thousands of wounded and maimed soldiers to show for it.
We failed to pacify the country so we LOST and we are still spending Billions of our treasure on a mis guided Mission so we are still losing.
We gave the Iraqi’s over $ 25 Billion in weapons and much of it ended up in ISIS hands and now we spend Billions destroying it talk about a Cluster situation what a waste.
Great for the Industrial complex and the inside the Beltway Robber Barons!
We have bred more terrorists by our bungling, arrogance , over paid killer contractors and allowing the Shiite Government to brutalize the Sunnis etc. This led to ISIS . So ISIS is Bush’s Frankenstein and Saudi Arabia’s too.
We have many forces in the area and there is just a continued drain on our forces and economy and its spilled over into our Politics. So we are still LOSING and bad political choices which will limit our Social choices are being made.
More Losing
The bottom line is that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results!
We need to pull back regain our Focus so we can Stop Losing!
Send Trump on a Mission over there to take out ISIS with some of his flunkies. let him go down in flames !
Silent,
You are still missing the point. The political object and the role of the military are not always the same. It’s quite possible for the military to win, but the resolution of the civilian government and the people may change.
Thus the US military can quite rightly claim they haven’t lost a war since 1815, but the political leadership may well have lost. The military considers a loss to be on the battlefield. A forced surrender by a military commander, not an ordered withdrawal decided by a civilian politician.
The US military is not a colonial army. It’s not designed, has the the trained personnel or even the mandate to be a colonial administrator. The responsibility for US policy rest with the civilian elected government.
The role of the military is limited. George Bush mistakenly believed that the US military could enforce a political solution on Iraq, that’s a different task. Enforcing a political outcome must either come from the people themselves, or by ruthless repression and long term subjection.
Neither of these remits within the capacity of the US forces. To ruthlessly suppress and reconstruct a society you need specially trained Security/police units. (KGB/NKVD, SS, PAP etc). Such troops are trained in controlling civilian insurgency and dissent. This is an entirely different sort of organization, with different objectives .
Creating such a force within the US military would not be possible, politically unacceptable, and illegal.
Good evening Marco – I respect your valiant Efforts at Honoring your service and those others like you. You are entitled to hold on to your interpretation of Victory. Lets leave it at that.
I showed your reply’s to 3 American Veterans of that War they shook their heads in dis belief. Regardless of what the Politicians did or did not do the end result is the North took over Saigon and routed the demoralized and corruptly led ARVN and mis managed by their Big Brother America so all the valiant efforts, the Money and the deaths and wounded including the millions of Vietnamese was Indeed in Vain!!
The real damage was done domestically back home and we still are suffering from it. We lost much potential to make our land even greater and we did not learn a damn thing as we are sw\till bogged down in endless Wars of Poor Choice not National Security. Our misguided efforts end up Breeding more Terrorists and many many Americans are awakening up to this fact. Most of the service men I meet say the same thing it is just apaycheck and temporary gig passing thru… White, Black and Brown all say the same thing. I live in an area with over 35,000 soldiers etc. Nice sample size.
Our power elites mostly from the GOP and some from the Dems have failed us. Their Corporate Masters pull the strings and we only have a Volunteer Army as only the poor browns, blacks and rural whites comprise most of the volunteers , the same for the women . Most join not out of mis guided patriotism but of economic need the only way out of the Black or Brown Ghetto or dying Rural America is to join the service and get some skills.
The Masters keep it this way so that there is NO Debate in Congress or the Senate and they can drum up false Straw man arguments that get us into these Hobson Choices! or False Choices !
Many people want a return to the draft so we might regain our democracy and make all the well to do serve and die and shed blood etc. A draft would be a great equalizer and lead to serious debate and discussion and people might take their politics more serious and we would not have a mis fit like Trumper running for President. He was a draft Dodger a chicken hawk punk !
so you may cling to your View that We won but we lost and are still losing Mate.
In a few minutes I will be drinking Red Wine with two Vietnam Veterans and their wife’s and they will criticize me for continuing to dialogue with you over something as absurd as your position.
Our ideas are our ideas the proof is when you take it public and share and then the feedback determines whether one’s ideas are acceptable or not.
Yours is not by other guys who were there 3 years each.
They feel even stronger about these issues than me. They resent their service and dont even like to talk about it. They saw a lot of needless deaths and thousands of women and children burned up by our planes for nothing. They saw stupid officers ordering stupid orders that got people killed and they saw the CIA doing its dastardly deeds over there.
Now America imports clothes and toys and other junk from Vietnam they won they got our jobs and we get the cheap imports and the Masters who caused all this BS make the money!
We lost Brother that is it You are Free to cling but I got over it!
We will toast Marco Polo tonite and Pray in Unison that he gets over it!