Are We Making Progress as a Civilization?
A friend wrote to me last night: I will tell you, Craig, I was so utterly horrified by the dolphin video (that she had shared on Facebook, re: Japan’s considering dolphins pests and slaughtering them wholesale) I doubt I will ever sleep well again.
I wrote: I completely get it. I’m sickened beyond words by things like this. I used to think we were making progress towards civility and reason as a species over the last 800 years, starting with the Magna Carta, followed by the Renaissance, the Age of Reason/the Enlightenment, the U.S. Constitution, the abolition of slavery, women’s suffrage, civil rights, environmentalism, etc. But I’m not at all sure anymore.
When she responded: We aren’t. We probably ought to just accept it, as opposed to being hopefully delusional, I left it at that.
Imagine my surprise when I read today’s edition of The Writer’s Almanac and learned that my favorite author, John Steinbeck, who was born on this date in 1902, had said: “A writer who does not passionately believe in the perfectibility of man has no dedication nor any membership in literature.”
I might have replaced “perfectibility” with “improvability,” but who am I? In any case, that’s quite an inspiration for all of us.
I knew about Japan’s slaughtering of whales while using the excuse that it was for research work, but I hadn’t known about their wholesale slaughtering of dolphins. It seems to me that it is not the dolphins that are the pests, but rather, the Japanese.
Craig,
There is a degree of over-sentimentality in relation to dolphins.
Just because we think dolphins are cute, doesn’t mean other cultures share our beliefs. Lamb’s are cute, calf’s are really cute, but lamb and veal are staple foods enjoyed around the world.
The traditional Kosher method of killing animals is pretty gruesome (and traditional Halal) , but I don’t see Greenpeace protesting against Jewish dietary practices.
My worry is were becoming very culturally imperialistic toward the Japanese.
He’s my belief:
The more intelligent and evolutionarily developed the animal, the greater the imperative to treat it humanely; dolphins are high on that list, right behind humans, if I’m not mistaken.
Moral relativism has its limits. Unnecessary mistreatment of animals is always wrong, whether you’re in the U.S., Japan, or on Mars. Having said that, there are gray areas, and you brought up a few, like lamb or veal. I don’t eat either or moral grounds, but that’s just me.
Craig,
Marco has a very different outlook. He thinks that anything is acceptable if enough people or a culture support it. Thus the genital mutilation of girls is acceptable in cultures where it is practiced because it is widely accepted as acceptable. The intention to slaughter Native Americans in certain areas was acceptable because it was widely approved. In Africa, some cultures accept cutting body parts off of albino people because possession of those body parts confers prosperity to those who possess them even if the albino person dies as a result of the amputations. Because these things are widely accepted among certain people and cultures we have no right to object. Instead, we should realize that all cultures are equal.
You and I have a very different outlook and believe that there are some universal standards for civilized people to follow.
Frank,
The problem with your “universal standards for civilized people to follow” , is you apply these values selectively, and at your convenience.
As I said to Craig, you’re vocal about Japanese fisher-folk, but silent when it comes to other more politically sensitive (and aggressive)cultural practices, such as the Jewish or Islamic traditional methods of animal slaughter.
You express deep concern for the native American and extol the virtues of the standing rock protestors, yet remain silent about the destruction of sanctuaries and slaughter of rare bison and other native species by the protestors.
You are also amazingly silent at the vast tonnage of effluent, rubbish and trash left behind by the protestors.
Where is your anger and outrage as the protestors set fire to their shanties before leaving ? Where was your sense of outrage at the thousands of tones of diesel consumed by the
protestors ?
Where is your outrage at the contamination by the protestors of the rivers and lake, including pollution and disease from raw effluent.
There is enough rubbish to fill 4000 large dump trucks.
Who’ll pay for all this ? Not the protestors, they’ve just wandered off, congratulating each other on fighting the good environmental fight, leaving other to clean up their mess !
Sadly, trash isn’t the only thing left behind by these eco-hypocrites.
A number of abandoned ‘pet’ animals including, dogs, puppies, kittens, donkeys, birds, and reptiles have been found and rescued the from the Dakota Access Pipeline Camp by Furry Friends Rockin Rescue.
The Rescue (run by those redneck local volunteers, Silent loves to hate) have worked hard to catch all these abandoned pets and find homes for them among local volunteers.
It’s not your values I dispute, just your selective and convenient application of those ‘values’.
Craig,
I’m not so sure dolphins are so cute and cuddly as you think, in fact they can be pretty vicious predators.
We tend to mistakenly believe that animals are more “intelligent” or “evolutionarily developed “, because they relate to humans, better than others.
“Unnecessary mistreatment of animals is always wrong”.
Ah, but there’s the rub, in the word “unnecessary’. The Japanese fisherman who have been catching dolphin for over 400 years, would argue that it’s just as necessary as killing baby goats.
I notice you also shy away from criticizing Jewish-Islamic practices. Presumably it’s easier to morally condemn poor Japanese fisher-folk, than address the same issues when it comes to cultures less politically correct.
Marco,
The Japanese behavior towards dolphins and some whales surely is one of vicious prediction.
It should be noted that dolphins have actually rescued people from drowning.
Frank,
You seem to confuse the shape dolphins jawline with a smile. They will cause serious injury to humans and have often killed humans.
Like humans some dolphins kill humans, porpoise and other creatures for pleasure, not just to eat.
Male dolphins have been known to kill young dolphins in order to mate with the calf’s mother
Reality, is a bit different from the Disneyised version of dolphins Hollywood, and eco-dreamers would have you believe. Dolfins are large, aggressive predators. Most animals can be friendly at times. Bears, for instance, can be cute and friendly, but also dangerous.
Marco,
You wrote, “You seem to confuse the shape dolphins jawline with a smile.”.
Prove it!
As to the rest of your post and the previous one, I cannot, and will not even try, to discuss all possible issues relating to values. I have dealt with only what seems to be current matters.
Frank,
Aw, Frank, okay, the dolphins are really smiling at you!
As for the rest of your comment,”I cannot, and will not even try, to discuss all possible issues relating to values”.
That’s okay also, it’s much less disturbing to be selective in your outrage. No one enjoys re-evaluating their values or discovering our view of the world might have unpleasant flaws.
But, I’d be wary of swimming with dolphins and stay clear of bears, especially if they’re smiling. (you never know what the joke may be).
I am in agreement with Frank and Craig as they express a consistent position of respect for all peoples and recognize the need for better Stewardship for various animals due to the need to maintain and protect
needed Levels of Bio diversity.
The bigger problem lies in the conflicted relationship between Uncontrolled Capitalism and The concepts of sustainability in all matters. that is the real RUB as they say.
Marco selectively pointing out various examples of mankind s improper practices as a defense or blanket reason to ignore some bad practices like the excessive Dolphin Kills is called
DEFLECTION, DISTORTION , DISTRACTION , DENIAL of the original point.
This is a tactic over used as the Main MO by Gomers and others of the same ILK who want to selectively pick winners and losers due primarily to some moneyed self interest opportunity
Marco I do respect you point about the cruelty practiced in so called KOSHER processing of meat. Good Point. There is much work to do.
As for the mass of garbage from the ND protest site – specific evidence and stats are needed to support your claims …tho if true then a collective clean up effort is in order…but show us the facts not the claims.
We have been told that every extra dollar must go into some sort of defense related purchase and we will be so much safer etc etc….the lie has never delivered as it CAN’T. Cause its a LIE! A Myth! An Illusion! Delusional thinking keeps mankind trapped in endless foolishness.
But now we have a Trumperian ERA and the emphasis is on buying more toys of death and aggression to further destabilize humanity. When is enough ENOUGH !!???!!
In contrast the defense of clean water and air which should be a common goal for all citizens is casually dismissed as getting in the way of the amassing of ever greater profits at the expense of the greater society. These defenses are being ravaged and thrown out with the Baby as they say….
Craig, Indeed we are going backwards regressing as they say…..The backlash will be Great as New Chalices of Toxicity are created. All the so called Deplorable s out there Own this….but most are trapped in self induced degrees of DENIAL or just plain Clueless.
As for the Japs they are so deep in debt they are desperate and will try anything to climb back up the slippery ladder slopes of eternal growth!
the Follies of Mankind are many and repeat themselves …
so it goes in a dumbed down society and declining world in its frantic efforts to somehow sustain unsustainable growth at any costs ….Damn the torpedo’s full speed ahead they sail on into calamity yet unforeseen!
well said Frank
Silent,
Good points!
Also, we have to focus our attention. If everyone and all organizations attempted to address too many issues, focus and progress would be lost. Thus, there are many worthwhile organizations which specialize in specific issues and maintain a narrow focus.
Strumpet wants to increase our nuclear arsenal. I shall not address aspects of other weapons, etc., but I am strongly opposed to increasing the number of nuclear warheads. It seems pointless, costly, increases the likelihood of starting a nuclear war accidentally, and would reduce the likelihood that anyone would survive if a nuclear war occurred.
As for going backwards, progress usually isn’t linear and continuously forward. More often it is like two steps forward and one step back. Perhaps an occasional step backward is necessary to gather for support and strength for more steps forward. Now that it has been clearly revealed that ethnic hatred is still a serious problem, we need to rededicate ourselves to opposing it.
Silent,
Frank and Craig’s ” respect for all peoples” doesn’t seem to extend to Japanese Fisher-folk and their 400 year old customs !
These fisher-folk are not exterminating dolphins, in fact they are preserving the fish stocks of their small piece of territory.
I could be argued that their practices are an effective method of sustainable utilization of natural resources. (the fact there are still dolphins after 400 hundred years would tend to support that argument).
As for the behaviour and garbage at the Standing Rock camp site, what did you imagine all those people were going to leave behind ?
Where did you imagine in frozen ground all the human effluent would go once the ground began to thaw ? Did you think each person brought their own toilet and sewage treatment plant ?
You seemed so keen on reading news articles in praise of the demonstrators, but suddenly your ability to google has deserted you ?
Moral outrage is only of value when it’s applied indiscriminately, not just selectively at your convenience.
It’s even worse when the media, or absurdly self-important Eco-comentators, arrive at some some location and pontificate about local customs or practices.
Unfortunately, these distorted selective and subjective conclusions created by viewing local conditions through the prism of preconceived philosophy and ignorance, become what the world believes and do great injustice to the local people.
Meaning well, isn’t an excuse for demanding everyone adhere to the same values, especially when the the cultural values you adhere to are conveniently your own.
“respecting all peoples” is just hypocrisy if you only respect the pats of their culture which are pleasant and agreeable and don’t clash with your own cultural values.
Dear Frank
thank you again for a uplifting and thoughtful expression. Good Points too.
You continue to demonstrate depth and good humanity as well as some flexible common sense about most things.
You are so right about progress not being Linear that darn human condition thing takes us backwards.
Looking forward to nite to watching the master of Distortion and Pathological Spin . We get the Narcissistic Puppet Master wanna be will try to gloss over his flawed policies and lack of substance.
The Showman will be in fine form tonite on TV – for those of us with Brains , Hearts , Conviction and Decency and Inspiring Values we will see thru the smoke and mirrors…
I got a good bottle of Chianti ready with some good cheese and such and plan to sit back and watch the Circus Master in Action! Must turn the tragic events into some comedy and LOL LOL
The ICE fellas made a raid at NMSU in Las Cruces 2 weeks ago low key one took less than half dozen away ???all I know. Under radar so far. Trying to round up students that are dangerous or something ???\
The students have now erected a mock statue of the trumpet and crowned it with….not mention able on the web…. the President of the University has declared it a freedom of expression a civil right even though it is quite offensive I am told. T
The local gomer society ( GOP) were disappointed in the lack of respect. But the President of NMSU said the free speech of their students deserves respect too !
so there you go. The rebirth of Student Activism is running High in the Land! The Administration sanctions it – as they know how low the nation has fallen w the Orangatung trumpet!
So there is Hope for civilization yet !!!
Silent,
” The rebirth of Student Activism is running High in the Land!
Also the rebirth of Irony!
During a recent riotous demonstration New York University,designed to silence someone, to keep them from speaking on campus, I observed a young woman screaming;
“We will not sit back and allow Nazis to have a platform to feel comfortable and organize and mobilize!” ” we will silence them before they speak” !
Like you, she seemed pretty selective about the right to free speech.
The irony of students rioting at Berkley University to prevent Milo Yiannopoulos from speaking, is on a grand scale. Berkley was once a beacon for student free speech and tolerance.
The group leading the riot and employing violence to prevent someone exercising their right to Free Speech, called themselves “Anti-fascists”.
Now call me old fashioned, but I always thought people rioting and using violent intimidation to prevent someone from speaking, were fascists, while those opposing violence and supporting free speech, were “anti-fascists” .
Deliberate media inaccuracy doesn’t help, in fact just makes things worse. A headline covering the Berkley riot reads;
“Milo Yiannopoulos Speech at UC Berkeley Sparks Fiery Protest”.
This is wrong on two important levels. Firstly, Milo Yiannopoulos never got to make a speech, so the implication that something he said or did “sparked” the riot is wrong, and disingenuous.
Secondly, Milo Yiannopoulos is the victim ! The headline implies not only were the rioters justified, but Milo Yiannopoulos should be blamed, not those attempting to deny his constitutional rights!
The headline could be taken straight from the pages of Völkischer Beobachter, or Pravda.
Ah well, as I get older I suppose I become more aware of growing hypocrisy and irony.
At Frank I am writing as a contiuation of the things you said forgive my words as Mate Marco is running at the mouth again
Marco sir just because we have different values and most of the other folks have different values from you does not mean we condone every trivial act of in correctness that is going on all around the world.
We have a right to take our stands for what we think is right and balanced . OK you are so out of line with your super sized Broad Paint brush Swipes at DECENCY.
Your value system is twisted mate real twisted. If you knew all the things you claim to know and use as Strawman Arguments no one would get anything done !
My god I am sure those students in Y knew that the neo nazis setting up were neo nazis – so they decided to do what ever they did. did the local police stop them ? Did they get a raw deal ? How in the hell are we to know about all this Trivia you use as examples of PC bias bs which I dont stand for.
The ND situation why dont you just write a letter draft a legal brief and send it to the President of the Sioux nation and call him out for not cleaning up the land. I would love to rea dhis reply as I dont think things are as bad as you portray them to be.
Take it up them and the Water protectors see what they have to say about it.
Projection is a serious SIN and You seem to thrive on Projections – and the irony is you never give specifics to back up your claims and it s not just politics you never defend with stats or figures any of your carbon supporting positions or your enduring Love affair with the nuclear GENIE. which is fine – but You dont have any Game mate.
You can not cite or provide any substantial figures to support your all over the place positions.
So stop accusing others and Stop Projecting what you FEAR because that Jacket does not Fit.
Several serious scholarly Catholic and Episcopalian Clergy men told me years ago as did some Christian brothers that projection is a serious SIN.
keep to your self as you just make a bloviating fool of yourself.
Craig, Frank , and others and myself are not and can’t be responsible for all these situations – distractions that you use as Straw man examples in your ongoing Efforts to Undermine things that the majority of people think are no longer moral.
I am not going to waste my time explaining and re explaining the NMSU situation to you becasue the Impact of it is Over and Beyond your sense of consciousness or your Value systems.
You are entitled to that it is your right .
but the Majority rules the Roost Sir not the Minority ! Trynany is never good thing, but the Tyranny of Minority is a most Terrible thing its Worse. In many discussions you tend to argue for the minority position .
That leads to bad positions and being on the wrong side of History as well.
So re consider your penchant for projection mate. its baseless and you never ever back things up. Been waiting for close to 2 years for facts from you – you write articulate beautiful grammar or Good Queen s English concepts but they are DEVOID of real Substance when one re reads them no Facts to support.
On google and ND , I have more important things to do and earn a living to keep up with that situation.
I have had time to attend a conference in Colorado recently and watched some reports from japan and the clean up effrots going on at the melted down Nukes. Poor japan already deep in debt , short on resources with limited options as they import almost all of what they need. Well the new Revised Bill to clean up the 3 destroyed nukes is now at $ 192 BILLION so much for the efficacy of your GENIE Icon! Why dont you go show them a better way to get things done!
I am not the police man for the world. Nor is Frank Craig. Now if you want to commission me and pay me handsomely for my efforts I will endeavor to circle the Globe and right all these PC wrongs you mention. But I will forewarn you I will be Selective as I dont want to on the Wrong Side of History! or the Good Book either !
The inconsistencies are many in all political movements and both sides are stained with them I will state in a gracious attempt at seeing a small part of your paint brush points!
Go fishing let it all go its all temporary in the end .
Silent,
Good points.
Of course those opposing the pipeline should have cleaned up the mess they made. Also, those who prevent others from speaking forfeit their own right to speak. Marco seems to think that we condone the bad behavior of those who support some of the principals in which we believe, but I feel certain that you and I believe that it is important to set good examples. Obviously supporting environmentalism does not give people license to behave irresponsibly, but neither should fear of irritating others prevent us from speaking up responsibly.
Silent,
Three phrases stand out from your lengthy reply.
1) Although you posted extensive support for the ND demonstrators, suddenly you are “too busy” to be interested in learning of the eco-trash and vandalism left behind, or the sad plight of the animals, including abandoned pets.
Perhaps you should learn a little of the kindness of those you label local ” rednecks ” . These folk are not only after the abandoned pets, but helping local Native Americans clean up.
Oh yeah, and among those volunteers is the local Sheriff’s department !
2) It’s obvious that before you form an opinion, you don’t bother learning any facts, yet you abuse those who do !
What would be the point of my “backing up” my facts, if you can’t be bothered to check out references, or bother to learn anything for yourself ?
In fact, every post of mine is carefully researched and based on an assessment of facts both for and against. (ask politely, and I always cite sources)
Unlike you, I try to see both sides. It’s both my nature and training to try being fair and objective.
I know it’s hard not to be selective, or emotionally affected when gathering and assessing information. However, it’s essential not to be selective if you want to do justice to any assessment.
( But just so you know, 1) the Standing Rock demonstrators may have mostly departed, setting fires and leaving a mountain of trash and effluent, but the Army, the locals and the local native American tribe are working hard cleaning up.
In the case of the Berkley riot, the Campus Police refused to take any action. Oh, and your assumption that the speaker was a “Nazi”, is a more than a little bizarre considering the speaker, Milo Yiannopoulos, is a gay, Jewish immigrant, whose grandparents were Holocaust victims ! Not the usual qualification for a “Nazi” stalwart!” )
Perhaps you should drink less, and read more 🙂
Marco
Your facts are not backed up Mine are.
You state many things going on up there well our news here has cooled off and we have to make a living. I was like many others interested during the standoff and trying to learn what happened etc.The natives were getting pushed around. The election came and some of the talked about court delays for permits seem to have been over ruled ?
My interest is that the Native Americans for once get a fair shake period. That is the general consensus of their distant supporters around the country.
I stand by what I said based on experience and friends former ND who cant take the Red necks and their Racist ways . They only go back 1 time a year and that is it.
We get very little new news now and it appears that the natives will have to accept the pipeline going thru and under the river . The smoke screen band aid that Obama put out is no longer in effect w the election of Trump. Obama whle a good decent man , also compromised much and if he really wanted to change things he should have acted years ago and forced the environmental studies adn revisions to routes etc.
He had a all of the above energy strategy including nukes , coal – $ 10 billion , oil and gas and renewable s so perhaps he felt he could not stand in way of progress. Then in the twilight of his term he throws a Empty gesture for popularity sake perhaps at the problem knowing the die is cast. ( being sorta cynical or realistic on this)
So what the natives do and their collection of Activists do is up in the air? There is some talk about Washington marches and former soldiers are talking of going up there ? How much is talk and how much is real don’t know. Retired Gen Clark son was on radio 10 days ago briefly talking about renewed actions?
You over state things Marco. You must be a Broad Brushed painter – maybe the trumper will contract you to paint his Wall on Mexican border a good role for you. Its going to be a big wall so big Brushes will be needed.
Experience counts!
The court case may be thrown out or it may move forward that is not being talked about anymore.
As for those rednecks that is good they are cleaning things up they have benefited greatly over the decades from what their ancestors did to the natives and still do. They and their Gov and State leaders altered the route of the pipelines according to some government staff ( Federals) how far and why is based on the decades long animosity between the groups that started long before there were pipelines.
Did hear that one of the young ladies who was a nurse aid during the protests did not lose her complete hearing or ear. She is back East making speeches .
Not much else some say some lawsuits by Tribe against the private contractor police or security staff who acted like Thugs and mistreated many so there may be some court cases over that.???
But our news is Trump and his daily circus Have no realistic need to check out google on this subject as it is in a holding pattern.
As I said go talk to the president of the Tribe and the Water protectors tell your Red neck friends to ask them to clean things up – the reply s will be interesting if in fact it is as bad as you claim.
Write CNN or FOX to do a on the ground report on how the natives and their protester friends left a big garbage dump. See if they will take the story and run with it….so far nothing playing on news.
As I said maybe you should go to Japan and show the JAPs how to clean up a failed nuke site and see if you can get the Bill which is at $ 192 Billion and rising , well you could be a hero if you get a cap on costs. maybe a good Commission too!
keep you busy too!
On Milo – your jewish hero – well several times in the press here and on the radio he has been described as a extreme right wing type who advocates some serious dark things – also he has been accused of being a child sex abuser – I think that may have led to the Blowback and the Students not wanting him to speak at the college.
But again that area is not my area of interest Marco I am busy being productive in wholesome energy related projects.
The main stream news media have not covered that incident very well nor much about that dude. Can’t get distracted by every little incident going on in the world
Sounds like you want to be the Sheriff of Nottingham , why dont you work on lowering Wholesale Energy prices in Australia they keep rising! that is right in your back yard. Good luck with that.
Cant spend my time chasing dubious characters .So lets watch that projection you are so addicted to.
best wishes and may your Garden Bloom Early and Often
Silent,
“Your facts are not backed up Mine are.”
I read and re-read your post to see where you include any references or sources for your claims, but none appear. In fact, you actually boast of having done no research or even bothered to be informed about what you claim, instead rely on ranting !
Milo Yiannopoulos is certainly not my “Jewish hero” ,(your antisemitism is showing), I disagree with nearly everything he writes or says. However, he has a constitutional right to free expression.
Free Speech, isn’t about letting the people you agree with speak, Free speech is about ensuring the people you dislike speak freely.
Free speech is the most basic right of any free society. That’s why the founding fathers of the US, and other nations place it first on the bill of rights.
The founders of the US constitution were influenced by ‘Enlightenment’ writers and philosophers such as Voltaire who was attributed as saying:
“I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.
I’m curious as to why you, and American find it difficult to find news stories, yet here in the UK I can access news stories about the US ?
You certainly keep alive the lynch mob standard of evidence when you justify the violent suppression and denial of someones freedom of speech.
You evidence is ” some anonymous person, on some unnamed radio show claimed Milo Yiannopoulos is an extreme right wing type and been accused of being a child sex abuser” !!!
That’s it ? Those are your “facts” ?
Now I offered to supply you with accurate, reputable news sources that support everything I wrote, but you are not interested in facts, preferring to maintain your prejudices.
I always take the time to “back up my facts” ! I appreciate when people produce more accurate or more reliable facts to refute my sources. What, I take exception to, is you claiming my facts are wrong, when you admit you have no relevant knowledge to advance to support your claim.
Marco – you enjoy your painting career – keep practicing.
There are too many wrongs to correct out there so there is a Big Huge World Wide need for a white wash professional like yourself.
Wear good hats and protective Sun Screen. Be respectful to the natives where ever your assignments may take you…
Dear Frank thank you for understanding.
You clarify exactly my point in explaining and discussing with our contrarian colleague Marco.
I regret having to diss him off as a master White Washer but the more I review his diatribes over the past 2 years one would be blind not to conclude otherwise.
The bigger issue about civilization is that we are like you said 2 steps forward and 1 back or more back.
That is historical and you are correct in pointing out that Truth or Reality.
The issue to day is we have a maniacal sociological pathological narcissistic liar in charge now. He is implementing massive rollbacks in the social , economic , and environmental progress we had been making in our society. the implementation of white supremacy and ignorance and unleashed carbon producers GREED is going to be a big setback.
Too much of the American electorate is suffering from self or culture induced Amnesia. So they forget that the votes they made in the past hurt them they repeat the same and still get bad results. but the quickly forget the real source of the pain. The people who cause the Pain.
Many segments of our society suffer from this and the end result is massive cognitive dissonance.
last night we heard the dictator wanna be extolling th emilitary and heroes etc and the masses may have been moved, I doubt many of them realize the trumpet is a 3 time vietnam draft dodger – a chicken hawk el supremo a master of distortion! Tragic made for TV in america.
Must sit back sip fine wines and try my best as others try to do the same – as we watch a un productive 2nd coming of Reagan and the Teflon Lies of Reagan Trumper the Trumpet will be a master Tale of Spin and Smoke and Mirrors with hidden cost so High one does not want to contemplate them.
The first clown did major damage from which the US never has recovered but this second clown will do more damage. The critical issue is that we don’t have the margin or timeline to recover perhaps from these serious setbacks coming down upon us.
Amen The Road less Traveled for those who see a better way but live in a world of Amnesia!
You take care Your Values shine thru the Fog….of others
Dear Silent,
Fortunately our country is basically very strong. Although it’s impossible to quantify the damage that Trumpet may do, unless he gets us into a large war, I think that we will muddle through and come out OK. In fact, Trumpet’s actions could awaken people to the need to do their homework to understand how our government is supposed to function and the need to elect politicians who are honest, concerned with our democratic values, the environment, and competent. Educators may be awakened to the need to have good classes to teach civics, American history, the history of democratic governments, and how to think logically and clearly. That is especially important because too often education ceases with high school (or college) graduation.
I was fortunate to be educated in grades K – 10 in Manitowoc, WI, which at the time had a very excellent public school system. The 9th grade civics teacher, although somewhat eccentric, did an excellent job. We learned who the members of President Eisenhower’s cabinet were, their functions, etc. We took a trip to Madison, the state capital, to see the state legislature in action and hear an address by Governor Kohler. I also remember a class in which we were taught how to think logically, the propaganda techniques to watch out for, etc. When I was a senior preppy, the American History teacher did a very good job. Although we did not learn about Jim Crow or lynchings, I think that he did the best he could without risking being fired or causing some of the alumni to stop supporting the school. I learned more when I worked for a company at which the president of the NAACP was also an employee.
Somewhere I read that Trumpet’s approval rating among those of us with tertiary degrees is 28%. There is a strong negative correlation between educational attainment and approval of Trumpet; that should say something. However, we should avoid the mistake of assuming that people who have not gone far in school are necessarily uneducated. Some people are self-educated to a very degree for which they surely deserve credit.
Until only a few years ago, I was a life-long Republican. However, political changes induced me to change my party registration. Interestingly, without discussing it, my brother and sister made the same decision for basically the same reasons. Being rational sometimes requires one to change one’s opinions in response to new information. Unfortunately, many people seem unable to do that.
Regarding Marco, I don’t know what to think. Perhaps he is playing devil’s advocate or just trying to see how we will react to his posts. Who knows?
Sir Frank thank you for the Thoughtful and very accurate commentary.
You obviously had a well balanced education and yes the civics which Reagan took out of schools in the 1980’s is just one of the many mistakes that under mined individuals of theircivic responsibility and the need for Government and it only works well if the public stays engaged.
But cultural changes, excessive mobility from region to region broke up long standing communities and the economy got harder and women working full time put stress on family life and little time is left for people to be as involved in community and even voting has suffered. Campaign money took over policy and policy is bought and bartered and dark money has ruined our political system as it is now.
I attended a US congressman Town hall a democrat in Tex. He is popular and he stood there for close to 4 hours. Most of the crowd was good and they all expressed fear and needs and were sad about Trump, VA , more war, not enough good jobs, and the growing racial tensions they see.
The congressman from El Paso did this in a small town Alpine TX where I hang out some time. he does not represent the entire area but came to give the rural people a chance to be heard etc. Very impressive . Rural country mostly ranchers and some oil workers and retired folks. More Dems that one would think. Also Republicans there as there Rep is from San Antonio its a large rural tract this district. . They spoke also and no one was angry or yelled anything there was a good Community conversation.
Frank I left the event feeling time well spent had a good feeling about Community and every day folks. We need more of that in our country and maybe the dark trumpet will spark a renewal of community interests.
Our political system became more corrupt .
Yes the more educated folks tend to live in cities and they tend to reject the gomer gop party more and more and they are willing to pay taxes for a civilized society.
I am beyond the mainstream DEM party as they became like Republicans in mid 1980’s the DLC concept of billy boy puppet of the Republicons and Wall St. And while they still stand for some good social positions and other good things they have become like the Republicons too close and dependent on Wall St money. not as bad over all but they playing that game to survive and compete w Republicons. I use the cons in the word as I beleive they con people and they are really deep in bed with Corporate goals and big Banks and they dont care about the morons who vote for them the working people . They just use them. have since reagan so glad you left them.
The Dems are moving more Progressive and if they do they will capture the Millenials and the expand minorities and the only thing that keeps the republicons in power is their massive gerrymandering and voter suppression and violation of civil rights. I am talking about the big states wher ethe action is. Texas will flip in 1 or 2 election cycles. All the cities are now Democratic where the educated and the better jobs are. Rural Texas is different than many other rural areas. it is still thriving better ther eis poverty for sure but more vibrant than NM , or kansas , Okl, Montana , Dakotas , etc. Most of those rural areas are in decline population wise and economy wise.
NM pumped oil and gas hard and fast for 8 years and gave away more tax breaks to the Railroads ( foolishness GOP policies tax candy )
And the tourism thing $$ seems to have peaked. End result is NM is having hard times. Ranching down and going south. etc etc.
Oh yes the Indian casinos in my book are a source of economic leakage and do more harm than good. limited gambling is ok, but not the over saturated extraction machine that they created. it is costing NM . I loved living there and did well and many people I met said there things were going to happen and they have.
So it will take better policies than what the trumpet has ran his mouth about to turn states like NM around. His cuts will hurt the two labs and they are the economic driver more than people think. so hang on its going to get challenging.
Expanding the military is just more good money thrown down a rat hole. We have so much more than we need. We just dont manage it well at all. We do need to get like the Brits who under budget limitations have learned to get more punch for their dollar.
We cant cut back as much as they did but we are and I hate to admit it or sound like the Trumpet as he is just telling lies. We need to cut back on all these other countries and not be over extended – stop searching for missions so the Military industrial Complex can sell more weapons or wars so they make money.
I really believe from my travels many Americans are waking up to that position. Where is the constitution does it say we must have endless Wars ! ??? Un winnable ones too just money making mis adventures that are un necessary.
But the profit in military affairs seems to control our nation we are addicted to it.
The late Chalmers Johnson The Sorrows of Empire explained these things in great detail begins with the early 1950’s forward to the Iraq war ERA.
More than you wanted Frank but keep the good thoughts coming. Enjoy your energy efficient home. Hot summers will be coming soon. At least NM is going to increase more Alternative Energy so you are going in Right direction despite this Dark trumpet era.
Watching that serial Vietnam Draft Dodger on the presidential stage last night spouting off all this bs false patriotism is just a real drag! A farce but Americans seem to have toxic infection of Amnesia ! So it goes
Silent,
Did Reagan actually take civic education out of schools? Considering that in general the curriculum is locally controlled I don’t understand how he could do that.
Mobility has probably reduced stability. Regarding working women, at one time a man could support a family adequately, but now that often seems impossible. I have no problem with women working, but I think it should be optional rather than an economic necessity.
It’s good to see that at least a few people with opposing opinions can amicably discuss matters. That seems to becoming increasingly rare.
It does seem that our political system has become more corrupt. However, things were even worse during the “gilded / robber baron era”, i.e., between about 1870 and 1910. The robber barons would actually take a suitcase full of money to bribe representatives.
It seems that some states are competing with each other to have the lowest business taxes. To do so, they are cutting back on important social services, including education. That cannot be good. It seems that the same thing may be happening on an international level. There is a strong correlation between education and per capita income so cutting back on education is a recipe for economic decline.
I see casinos as basically destructive. It seems that people who are already poor are more likely to gamble which obviously makes them poorer.
Trumpet’s state of the nation speech indicates that he wants to spend more on the military, more to repair our deteriorating infrastructure (which is probably needed), reduce taxes, and reduce budget deficits. Somehow the arithmetic doesn’t seem to add up unless economic growth increases significantly beyond what seems realistic.
Regarding alternative energy, if that means wind and solar, I have serious doubts. We need to phase out fossil fuels completely, not just by 30% to 70%, and currently that seems impossible because of the intermittent nature of wind and solar systems. We have two large laboratories here in NM which could be doing research work on nuclear systems which would make them more acceptable, but the work is not being done in the U.S. although it is being done elsewhere. I suspect that we will end up buying advanced nuclear power systems from China or elsewhere. Here are two articles which state my opinion on the matter:
https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2015/dec/03/nuclear-power-paves-the-only-viable-path-forward-on-climate-change
https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/nuclear-power-must-make-a-comeback-for-climate-s-sake/
I found the above two articles with a google search on “hansen nuclear”; the same search also returns opposing opinions of which I shall not deny the existence.