Clean Diesel and Hybrid-Electric Cars Very Close in Eco-Footprint
I just pulled back into the driveway with the first car purchase I’ve made in 15 years. My 1995 BMW 540-i died last week after 248,000 loyal miles; it was a true friend, and I’ll miss it.
Needless to say, I wasn’t looking to replace it with another eight-cylinder monster. Accelerating a 4000-pound mass of steel from 0 – 60 in 5.9 seconds used to impress me; it no longer does. And the bigger BMWs now weigh closer to 6000 pounds, and get about 20 MPG.
I bought a 2009 VW Jetta (I never buy new cars on general principles of frugality) 6-speed diesel, noting that most drivers get close to 50 MPG. I considered the Prius, of course, which gets about the same mileage, but I think I like this a bit better. I’m hoping that my next car will be an EV, which I’ll charge with PV on my roof, but this just wouldn’t work in my current station in life, with fairly frequent trips from my home near Santa Barbara, California to San Francisco, about 250 miles north, and San Diego about the same distance south.
Years ago I had a 504 Peugeot diesel. Most comfortable car I ever drove. Terrific fuel mileage too. Unfortunately Peugeot pulled out of the US market a long time ago.
I am drooling. I wish I could afford something like that. I wish someone would donate to me a VW diesel anything 10 years older than that. I couldn’t even afford a VW of the same year as my ’84 mercedes for the price they are going for when I bought the mercedes.
Just in case you are interested and you don’t have a warranty on the car……..
http://www.altfuelprices.com/index.php?bounds=%28%2834.108949127197%2C+-119.99268585205%29%2C+%2834.728949127197%2C+-119.37268585205%29%29&fuel_type=64
Comparing Diesel and gasoline cars can be slightly misleading. If a Diesel car and a gasoline car got the same mileage, that would indicate that the gasoline car is actually more efficient because the heat content of Diesel fuel is greater than the heat content of gasoline. However, in actual practice, the Diesel car would get better mileage than the gasoline car and in actual use in cars, a Diesel engine is more efficient. The main, but not only reason, is that a Diesel engine has no throttle valve. In a gasoline engine, the throttle valve is a serious cause of lost efficiency because of the pumping losses it creates; it takes power to suck air in because of the vacuum created by the throttle valve.
There are a number of points to consider when comparing Diesel with hybrid – electric. Like Frank said, a like volume of diesel has more heat content than gasoline so CO2 emissions are higher. (2.7kg versus 2.3kg per litre so around 23% more).
On the face of it, it would appear that you would need 23% better fuel consumption from a diesel to have equivalent net emission, however this does not take into account lifetime emissions associated with extracting minerals, manufacture, maintenance, eventual recycling, and road infrastructure to support the use of the vehicle.
On this comparison, the hybrid does less well as it is considerably more complex, with an electric battery and motor as well as the conventional combustion engine. This hybrid penalty requires the vehicle to travel a considerable distance (I would not like to commit myself to a figure for this) before its emissions drop below those of a conventional gasoline powered engine taking into account the full lifetime impact.
There are of course other things to be considered –
Suppose that on your trips from Santa Barbara to San Francisco you were to take four other people with you who would otherwise take their own cars rather than travelling alone – true, this would in fact slightly increase your fuel consumption due to the extra weight, however 1 car rather than 5 would result in a nearly 80% drop in emissions.
Another possibility is to join a car club – (which I realise will not suit everybody) if you don’t need a car all the time. That way, you walk, or ride a bike, or maybe get public transport for short local journeys. You then use a car vehicle occasionally when needed.
My thanks to you and Frank for the analysis. Re: a car club, e.g., ZipCar, yes, if I lived in a city, I would love to do that. I look at car ownership as a paradigm of the 20th Century — one that needs to be rethought at this point.
“This hybrid penalty requires the vehicle to travel a considerable distance (I would not like to commit myself to a figure for this) before its emissions drop below those of a conventional gasoline powered engine taking into account the full lifetime impact.”
You have been watching to much Fox News !
You obviously have no knowledge of the principles of Hybrid vehicles. A car running on an electric motor has no ’emmissions’! At low, or city speeds, all hybrids emit no emissionsemissions, modern EREV’s can travel up to 50 miles before engaging the gas engine.
Even then, it’s still more efficient! (that why rail locomotives are Diesel/electric !).
It’s you Marcopolo who is missing the point. By lifetime impact, I am including emissions other than those that come out of the tailpipe. Do you suppose it does not take energy to extract steel, aluminium, nickel etc. from their ores? That manufacturing is emission free? That roads are built and maintained without using energy? Without extracting resources?
I am well aware that hybrid vehicles have no tailpipe emissions when running on electricity, but that it not the point.
Manufacturing a typical car results in as many emissions as running that vehicle for around 2 years. Manufacturing a hybrid (including extracting the materials used to build it) results in more emissions than a standard vehicle, therefore it takes a while for the lower tailpipe emissions of a hybrid to offset this higher manufacturing related emission.
Are you serious? You seriously maintain that the manufacture of a Prius hybrid results in more emissions than a conventional gasoline/diesel powered car and therefore it’s actually more pollutant to drive a Hybrid, than a Prius or an EV ?
“That roads are built and maintained without using energy” !
Does the Hybrid or EV use different roads?
Do you have any facts to back up any of this nonsense ? Or do you just accept Rush Limbaugh’s word.
Two other factors to consider when comparing diesel to hybrid are your driving habits and the fuel. The greenhouse footprint of gas/ethanol blends does not change much, but you can drastically cut your greenhouse footprint from diesel with biodiesel, especially if it is sourced from waste vegetable oil. But most studies show that 100% soy based diesel has about 1/3 the footprint of conventional diesel. Here’s a useful station locator: http://www.usabiodieselprices.com/
The other thing to consider is your driving habits. If you do a lot of stop and go driving, you’re relatively better off in the hybrid, while if you spend a lot of time on the open road, you’re relatively better off with the diesel.
I also own a diesel, for similar reasons, a 2005 Jeep Liberty diesel. It was the second car in a 2 car family to supplement my 2002 Prius, and I needed the size because I’m a woodworker and my hobby is remodeling my house. So my decision was between the hybrid SUVs available at the time, and the diesel. It was an easy decision, because the hybrid penalty pointed out by Gary was also reflected in the price of hybrid SUVs- the cheapest hybrid SUV cost 35% more and got only 15% better mileage. I wrote about it here: http://cres-energy.org/blogs/blogs_konrad06apr.html
Thanks Tom. I’ll try to buy biodiesel; excellent point.
Just check your warranty to make sure it’s OK and carry a few fuel filters until the dinodiesel residue is cleaned out of there.
As I linked in my previous post, there is a station that sells B100 right in Santa Barbara.
Brian’s right… when you first use biodiesel in a car that has been burning petrodiesel, the biodiesel has the effect of cleaning residues out of the fuel tank, and they can end up clogging the fuel filter.
Another thing to bear in mind Craig, I got a $1.00/gallon tax credit last year for biodiesel I burned for business travel. I know you drive for business.
Perhaps we should have hybrid Diesels.
Probably the biggest factor in hybrid efficiency is its ability to recover the kinetic energy from braking. The biggest factor in Diesel efficiency is that when not working hard, it is more efficient than an Otto cycle engine because it doesn’t have a throttle valve. A hybrid Diesel would be able to recover the kinetic energy from braking and when not braking, would be more efficient than the Otto cycle engine.
I don’t understand why no hybrid cars use ultra capacitors. Although they have way less storage capacity than batteries, they are much more efficient than batteries when it is necessary to handle high currents. So, except in situations where a hybrid is a plug-in type, it would seem that ultra capacitors would perform better than batteries.
Probably I’ll keep my 2004 Mazda 3 for a long time. It’s reasonably efficient and I don’t drive enough to justify replacing it for something more efficient. It now has only 17,300 miles on it, so I’ve averaged only 2,500 miles per year since I bought it. I use my bicycle and motorcycles more.
My first thought when I heard they were going to make hybrids was “but they still burn gas”.
My thought was a biodiesel burning hybrid would make very large difference in our national hydrocarbon fuel consumption. A plug in biodiesel burning hybrid would be even better.
Diesels naturally seem to love turning generators and can burn biodiesel or even straight vegetable oil if setup correctly eliminating even the process required to turn it into biodiesel. Acceleration to highway speeds could be augmented by the electric motor if needed although that would lower the mileage some but only during acceleration. Once cruising you are back at the regular efficiency.
The thoughts go deeper but the hour is late and the point has probably been made.
@ Brian McGowan,
There are a few Modern Diesel/Hybrids manufactured in Europe. The problem is that Bio-diesel is not economic or easy to obtain. Car manufacturers don’t produce unprofitable limited production runs for a few hobbyists who wouldn’t by a new car anyway!
Hybrids, and EREV’s are more popular because people discover they seldom use the Gasoline technology, and enjoy the savings an efficiency of EV technology.
All new technology is expensive when first introduced.
But it’s amazing how many of those who are loudest in their condemnation of ‘Big Oil’, are yet happy to drive gasoline cars, rather than spend less than a dollar a day extra, to drive a vehicle that doesn’t require ‘Big Oil’s’ products !
There does not have to be a difference between using dinodiesel and biodiesel in any diesel vehicle if the manufacturer will just make the adjustments up front during manufacturing. The total difference in parts for me to convert my car was less than $100 and these days they are already installing what is required in new cars. There is no excuse except to support the dinodiesel industry. Remember, Rudolph diesel never intended his engine to burn the stuff they pump out of the ground.
I would be interested to know of these diesel hybrids you speak of and will try to search them out even though you will not be able to get them here.
To my knowledge, and I have paid attention to this, there are no diesel vehicles sold here in the U.S. that will not have their warranties voided by using a biodiesel mix greater than 5% biodiesel(B5), even when they come from companies in Germany, for example, where biodiesel is actually used. The U.S. is definitely trying with all their might to squash the biodiesel industry and maintain the dinodiesel industry. There is something very fishy.
Even Mcdonalds in Europe and the U.K. understands that they have a ready supply of fuel in their waste vegetable oil and are now running B100 in their distribution trucks made from the waste vegetable oil the pick up from their resturants when they deliver fresh oil.
Still the U.S. Mcdonalds is only going to “start experimenting with it” and from what I have seen they are not doing it at all. I have a 300,000ft2 major McDonalds distribution point within walking distance of my house and they are not interested in collecting and processing their oil or even putting solar panels on their giant roof even though they have a high electricity use for refrigeration. It boggles the mind that what a company has proven and has working in other parts of the world is not being used here.
When power goes down in this neighborhood, which happens often enough to make it worth me keeping solar charged batteries, I hear them fire up big diesel generators and I can smell the dinodiesel. They could be using biodiesel made from their own waste vegetable oil. Soemthing is very fishy.
http://biodieselmagazine.com/articles/1774/mcdonald%27s-converts-waste-grease-to-biodiesel
I am sure you are aware that McDonalds is not the only fast food resturant chain that could be doing this in the U.S..
I have a friend in the resturant distribution business that is collecting and cleaning 30,000 gallons per month and burning the straight waste vegetable oil in his distribution trucks and selling the rest to biodiesel processers. I have other friends that have made a business out of collecting used vegetable oil from resturants and cleaning it up to fuel grade and selling it to biodiesel manufacturers at a rate of 5000 gallons per week.
A plug in biodiesel burning hybrid would be just as popular as any other hybrid for the reason you mentioned and could burn dinodiesel any time they were not in a position to obtain biodiesel.
I personally burn 100% biodiesel in my mercedes which is made from virgin soy oil. I am going to fill up again this afternoon and will probably come away with close to 45 gallons so for all the screaming I do, I am actually not using any of the products of “big oil” for more than 3/4 of my yearly driving.
As for your comment to Craig below, I submit that when American car companies make what I want to buy I will buy it. Until then I will buy what I need from whatever manufacturere makes it. When American car companies decide to make a Volt that will burn any diesel from dinodiesel to 100% biodiesel or anything from gas to 100% ethanol I will consider it. Until then they are just playing around the fringes. Currently the Volt will ONLY burn gasoline. Chevy does make other flex-fuel vehicles that can burn up to E85. That technology sits on thier shelves and yet it did not make it into the Volt!! Who dropped that ball??? Craig can burn 100% biodiesel in his vehicle and therefore be greener than the Volt will ever hope to be. American car companies are simply not interested in making what America really needs. That is the bottom line.
Brian,
I am not opposed to the use of Bio-diesel, but it is a fringe or hobbyist fuel. No one has yet found an economically viable feedstock, despite billions of dollars of R&D. A few nations have turned excess sugar crops into ethanol, but only very small scale bio-diesel production is possible.
The hobbyist makes 5000 gallons per week, and proclaims that Bio-diesel is viable! But the US alone, uses nearly 2600 million gallons per week! The US has spent years subsidising bio-fuel. Shell,Gargill and others, have spent billions supporting bio-fuel R&D, but the logistics of a viable feedstock continue to elude discovery.
The problem is agriculture. Bio-fuels are essentially a product of agriculture and subject to all the economic problems of agriculture. Bio-diesel doesn’t store well, so it difficult to adapt to the cycles of agriculture.
In the end, it’s just a fuel for hobbyists and farm subsidy based industry. .
Auto-manufactures are in the business of mass manufacture, not manufacturing for a small group of hobbyists who don’t buy new cars anyway !
EV’s on the other hand, are now ready to accept power directly from your Solar Panels.
Incidentally, the emissions savings of a GM Volt running on E85 would be minuscule ! The average Volt owner uses less than 36 gallons of gasoline per annum !
Craig,
Why on earth would you, an American, purchase a German fossil fuel automobile when you are fortunate enough to live in the US where you can purchase a GM Volt ?
Exactly what part of the Oil product, diesel, do you consider green ?
Why would you not support your fellow American workers, and the US economy by purchasing a GM Volt ?
I’m not asking you to spend the addition $50,000 to buy the 300 mile range, pure EV, US manufactured Tesla ‘S'(although that would really express your principles).
Hell no, I’m just asking you to support US industry and the US economy by purchasing either of the two most important alternate energy vehicles available today.
Preaching alternate energy, is of very little use if we don’t practise what we preach !
Marcopolo,
Craig already mentioned that the Diesel car he purchased is second-hand and he used it to replace an olde BMW which he had purchased second-hand and required replacement. I very much doubt that it would be easy to find a second-hand GM Volt for some time.
The reason that American cars have improved so much over the last several decades is that foreign competition has forced them to improve. I am more than old enough to have seen the improvements resulting from foreign competition. If everyone were to purchase American cars on general principal without regard to quality or whether the cars met their needs, then the quality of American cars would again fall way behind the quality of German and Japanese cars.
Frank,
Neither the Tesla, nor the GM Volt is inferior in anyway to any foreign car ! Quite the contrary, Americans should be proud of these technically advanced vehicles.
If every American bought second hand ICE products instead of new US made alternate energy vehicles, there would be no alternate fuel auto-industry.
You complain loudly at the US auto-industry when it produces large gas guzzlers, yet fail to support American auto-manufacture when it produces the worlds best sustainable fuel vehicles!
And you wonder why the US economy is in the doldrums?
As I say, talking about environmentally friendly vehicles, is one thing, but putting your hand in your pocket and buying one, is beyond the level of personal commitment for most “green” advocates !
Much better to wait until GM and Tesla move to Asia, and the buy the vehicle. By then US manufacture will have ceased to exist and the US will have become a nation of people selling hamburgers to each other !
The GM export Ampera, will soon outsell US sales of the Volt ! In contrast, Japanese auto-manufacturers can rely on their home market to support new technology, but in the US the car-maker must go abroad to be appreciated.
I didn’t say that U.S. cars are STILL inferior; they have greatly improved. But I could provide specific examples of ways in which U.S. cars were inferior until recent decades, and of how they lagged the Japanese and Europeans in implementing multi-point fuel injection and better automatic transmissions.
Frank,
With all due respect, so what ? Yesterday is yesterday !
Today, you have a choice, talk ineffectually about the virtues of zero emmission transport, and moan that no one ‘does’ anything, or support US industry (your fellow workers) and the US economy by purchasing an advanced, US designed and built EREV, or EV today!
GM offers finance at only $385 per month,add in your fuel savings, and you can be practicing your principles for less than $1.oo per day ! (even less with your state and federal tax credit).
That’s of course assuming your princples are worth $1.00 ?
You are lucky to live in the USA. When I bought my first UK EV, it cost me $210,000 for a LEVRR. (and only 200 mile ramge).
Fox News commentators crow about the hypocrisy of the ‘Green’ environmentalists. Fox claims that there will always be an excuse why they don’t buy the technology demanded by environmentalists.
So here’s your chance, Frank and Craig, prove Fox wrong! For a few cents a day you can lead the world to fossil free future !
Or you can sit around doing nothing, inventing conspiracy theories, and demanding the government compel others to do what you shirk !
Craig,
Although it doesn’t often happen, Diesel engines can run away, i.e., keep running, sometimes at destructive speeds, and normal procedures to stop them can fail. For that reason, some Diesel busses have an emergency stop switch that causes an emergency throttle valve to close and deprive the engine of air.
One cause of run away is lubricating oil being sucked into the engine because of failed turbocharger bearings, although there are also other ways that oil can be sucked into the engine. The engine can run on the lubricating oil, so cutting off the fuel will not stop the engine. People who own or drive Diesel vehicles should be aware of the potential problem so that they can take appropriate action if run away occurs.
Here is a link to an article on what to do if the Diesel engine on a VW or Audi runs away:
http://www.myturbodiesel.com/1000q/stop-runaway-diesel-engine-how-to.htm
Although you probably will never experience the problem, it’s a good idea to know that it can happen and how to deal with it if it does. It is easier to deal with with a manual transmission.