Moral Rightness Is More Than Just Another Viewpoint
Marcopolo comments: “….You write from a predetermined position and belief structure…..(which) does obscure objectivity. That’s the problem with listening (and believing) only one side. No doubt the people supporting ALEC are just as passionate and sincere in their beliefs.”
For the life of me, I can’t understand why people take you seriously. The Germans who tortured and gassed the Jews were very passionate too. Passion and moral rightness have nothing to do with one another. But that doesn’t imply that moral rightness does not exist. Decent people fight injustice, fascism, oppression, and human rights violations. To say that the people who support atrocities are somehow entitled to their own viewpoints is totally unsupportable.
Craig,
Really ?! I would imagine that someone who needs to equate the values of political enemies, or those who dissent from the their point of view, with extreme atrocities are the one’s with a moral dilemma !
But all the emotive photo’s aside, let’s examine what we each both advocating :
Marocoplo : Remain open-minded,try to respectfully understand all points of view and information, evaluate carefully, and only then make a judgement or draw a conclusion.
Always remember for a democracy to survive diversity of opinion must not only be allowed, but encouraged ! Also, free exchange of information, while respecting and protecting the right of others to dissent.
Naturally, some restrictions apply. Dissent must remain peaceful and allow governance by the majority, while preserving the rights of the minority.
Craig : Listen only to those whose political doctrines and ideologies you share. Silence dissent. Remain close-minded and indoctrinated as a good “true believer”. Revile your opponents, even those with moderate divergence or dissent. Let intolerance reign. Anyone who disagrees must be an evil conspirator,heretic or worse! Never criticize or objectively evaluate your own advocacy or fellow advocates.
Now Craig, I know perfectly well that you are not really like that either as a person, or an advocate. However, you do have a tenancy to avoid objectively evaluating or recognizing the flaw’s in people or movements with which you sympathize.
Everyone indulges in propaganda. At it’s best, propaganda is informative and insightful, but it has a mortal flaw in lacking objectivity, so must be read with balance.
Balance is important, even though I may disagree with most of the political and social advocacy of ALEC, I don’t dispute their right to exist or regard their activty as ‘immoral’.
“Moral Standards” are often miss-used as a means of suppression. Moral standards vary from generation to generation, person to person, and culture to culture.
Organizations like ALEC are entitled to exist, and be opposed.
However, I can’t find any reference to support your claim that ALEC supports(or supported) Concentration Camps, genocide, overthrow of representative government, the US constitution, or any other of the things with which you accuse ALEC.
I don’t believe you can provide any evidence to support your accusation !
I don’t like ALEC much either, but I reserve my criticism for stuff for which I can provide real evidence.
As for your implied accusation that I am a supporter of Nazi atrocities, shame on you!
Naturally, I’m too young to have participated in WW2, however both my Grandfather, Grand Uncle, Uncles (both killed in the War) and father, campaigned as early as the 1920’s and ’30’s against Adolf Hitler and National Socialism. This was at a time when appeasement was strong, as the horror of WW1 still weighed heavily, especially on those who had served in the Trenches.
My Father served 6 years in WW2, (long before any American) was wounded three times, highly decorated and was one of the first British Officers to liberate the camps. The memories scarred his life and changed his personality.
As a soldier, I served in three conflicts and gained first hand experience of the old adage that the ‘first casualty of war is the truth’. I’ve done my share of standing up for human rights, (especially when it’s unpopular) and if I learned anything, it’s the importance of remaining objective, tolerant and understanding.
“when you cry, we are 100% righteous ! You join the congregation of the deluded” -Robert F Kennedy.
That’s honorable that you served in the military, but OMG, I’m so completely bored with this conversation; it’s been going on for five years. Don’t you every get tired of making the same point?
Craig,
To be fair, I didn’t raise the point, merely defended your accusation! I could say that it’s odd I should have to reiterate the same information.
When challenged you seldom substantiate your accusations. I’ve no wish to be forced from a sense of fair play to defend the likes of ALEC.
I would be only to delighted for you to provide me with evidence where ALEC (or myself) has advocated the overthrow of the government by illegal means, usurping Constitutional authority, supported the persecution of Jews, genocide, or any other aspect of the NAZI regime.
Since I don’t believe that’s possible, why are you surprised to find your comments rebutted ?
You say, ” Decent people fight injustice, oppression, and human rights violations”. I agree wholeheartedly.
That’s why I raised the plight experienced by of unfortunate Morton County Sanctuary operators.
These peaceful Native Americans, are simply engaged in preserving endangered species of fauna and flora. They have worked very hard for many years in this praiseworthy task, only to witness the life’s work, and livelihood destroyed by the protestors you so ardently admire.
These folk have been set upon, bullied, assaulted, had their precious animals stolen, butchered, slaughtered and stampeded, the homes and property Trashed and violated, their persons abused, assaulted, and humiliated, all by an arrogant, violent mob on numerous occasions.
So, once again I ask, where is your “decent voice” in fighting injustice, oppression, and human rights violations”, in these circumstances ?
Or is it ok, just as long as it’s those of whom you approve committing the “injustice, fascism, oppression, and human rights violations” ?
In my heart, I know that can’t be right ! I also know it’s important to convince you to speak out against ALL “injustice, fascism, oppression, and human rights violations, not just a selective few.
Why important ? Because if good, idealistic souls like yourself don’t speak out for what’s right, even when it’s inconvenient or against the interests of those you support, how can we condemn the utterances and actions of the creatures gathering around the President-elect ?
Believe me Craig, your voice is of considerable influence. In these uncertain times, I believe it’s even more important for advocates like yourself to remain a voice for reason and fairness, even, especially, when inconvenient.
@ Marco
Well now you tell Craig that you don’t like
ALEC – after vilifying me and others and Craig over them.
ALEC sir under mines the Will of the people by money seeking interests. That is the shortest most truthful way of describing them.
They are worse than a Shadow government as they are paid to confuse bribe and wrongly influence law makers into doing the bidding of private profit seeking entities. Perpetuate market imbalances and unfair and unhealthy practices , the list is endless. As I said many Republicons who attended the training were shamed by what has happened and how their party is in bed with ALEC! Once the thin veils of slogans and cutely disguised bad policy were Exposed!
They are undermining law. They could never get their positions passed thru a voting referendum or the light of the truth in a open debate in some legislative chamber where all the bad parts of their pending proposal could be exposed to the Light of Day.
So they are no good and should not be open for business. They should be forced to present their schemes and that is what most of what they do are Schemes – present these to the general public in Open Forum and let the voters decide.
That they have a Right to Do. I concede that. But they don’t work in the open they work in the Shadows with covert actions.
They try to do this Shadow effort and it is both corrupting to the American way and it undermine good government.
You as a so called Sustainability advocate should condemn them more forcibly. If you have followed their actions they have their footprints and finger prints all over ANTI Green Conservation Energy efficiency Solar energy , they limit Electric utilities Energy/ demand side programs. They are doing the bidding of the coal dinosaurs and their Minions! In health care and food production they have done their damage. Private prisons as well. .
So tell me Marco where is their Redeeming value given their Dastardly terrible track record
Face the Music as Craig says stop this playing it both ways under some vague claim to being Fair and Balanced. The articulate Word Salad tactics you employ are not persuasive. the young of today would reject your positions because you tend to side with those who want to keep things Unfair.
You have aright to your beliefs. But others are right to speak out for their positions if they Believe them to be better or in this Case More Just.
Damn mate we already are subjected to a TV channel that claims it is Fair and Balanced! One is 1 more than the market can take! LOL LOL
You don’t really Seek a me too persona or do you ! ???
The Indian Chief is leading the Protests Sir! It is not about Fauna and related it is much deeper much Deeper.
Keep it in the Ground !
Silent,
Either you believe in fairness and equal treatment for all, or you don’t.
If you proclaim your support for fighting, “injustice, oppression, and human rights violations” , it must apply equally to those who don’t share your viewpoints ans well as those who do.
As RFK pointed out “injustice, oppression, and human rights violations” is usually committed by people convinced of their righteousness, or the righteousness of their cause.
I would suggest you consider carefully your last observation.
” It is not about Fauna and related it is much deeper much Deeper.
Keep it in the Ground !” .
I invite you to think about the implications of what you just wrote.
Do you really mean a larger issue excuses ” “injustice, oppression, and human rights violations “as long as committed in a “worthy” cause ?
The people Marco are protesting the location of the pipeline. They also dont want it due to fears of More environmental damages. They want to stop using Carbon to the excesses we now do.
The part about the Fauna and what ever is part of it perhaps. I have not been exactly there but close by over the years. The Chief is leading the protests so the Native Americans want the protesters there and until the news says other wise I will not get confused .
My side says stop the pipeline so that is the side of the argument I am on. I am not shooting at the other side but I will point out their transgressions and have. So that is perfectly normal.
They have the money and dont be fooled by those Morton Cty folk, they are doing the Corporate Bidding they know that.
The Movement to keep it in the Ground is growing and is National and International in scope and reach. So the entrenched interests will have to push back which I am sure they will do plenty of pushing given the ushering in of the Trumperian ERA !
The clash of Ideologies will be certain where it leads is going to be interesting , if it leads to more tragedy well it is not my doing. One has to draw the line and take a Stand.
Do the Most you can with what you have where one Stands !
Silent,
The difference between us is simple. I don’t chose a side a stick by it right or wrong, denying responsibility for any acts, no matter how reprehensible by “my side”.
I try very hard to be objective, and understand everyone point of view, and condemn all reprehensible behaviour, (especially from the side I may support).
I don’t believe the end always justifies the means. It’s exactly that sort of thinking that perpetrates and justifies, “injustice, oppression, and human rights violations”.
As I have said several times, I support the protestors right to peaceful protest. I do not support the right for protestors to indulge in violent or criminal behaviour. just as would not condone acts of excessive force by the authorities.
The folk in Morton County are not “doing the Corporate bidding” ! They are strictly civilians in this conflict. Most of the inhabitants of Morton County wish the Pipeline and the protesters would both just go away.
You are correct when you ask where is the State Governor, and the federal agencies who should be in charge. Where indeed !
Instead a local Sheriff has been forced to cobble together a group of local law enforcement. prior to this, the local Sheriff was considered very highly by the local Native Americans. relation between Morton County and local tribes folk enjoyed a high level of acceptance and progress.
I’ve been to Morton County and greatly applauded the excellent conservation work being undertaken by local ranchers and environmentalists. (Many of whom are local Native Americans).
Surely, Craig and yourself are not so fanatically dedicated to the cause, that you can’t bring yourself to sympathize with these locals who have been the victims of “injustice, oppression, and human rights violations” ?
Haven’t enough innocent victims suffered in the name of “Great Crusades “?
Sir Marco – I don’t have perfect information on what is going on in N Dakota. The information I have heard over the radio and seen a BBC broadcast and read a few newspapers articles on it.
The drift is that the guards or thugs doing the bidding of the pipeline owners are the ones being violent.
Now if that is not the case then why does not our media rush in and video it and broadcast it? Maybe then the Governor and the FEDs would get involved.
I still think they should if indeed both sides are getting out of line and people are getting hurt. On either side or both.
I don’t blindly stay with a side if I discover they are wrong.
Your judgement of me once again is incorrect. It is because I challenge your continual painting with Broad Brushes.
Your casual judgement is met with Indifference and worn as a Badge of Honor.
I believe in a high level of values and that includes peoples rights and trying to save the Environment from destruction in the pursuit of more profits. These trump profits Marco. Human Values.
The people on the Radio tell a different story of hired security thugs who are not even from area and like to hurt people. they have video of it. Soon it will be on U tube or something perhaps. I don’t know I am not directly involved trying to make a supplemental living. in Energy projects.
So Marco just let it be, go there or write your contacts and get some documentation on the violence and send it to Craig and he will post it perhaps. I shared a story from VOX I think that was it on the Dakota issue. Perhaps he will post it for discussion.
that is all I stay Loyal to a cause until it is proved to be wrong then I leave it. So go prove it!
Silent,
We seem to making some ground in communicating with one another, and for that I thank you.
So, in a spirit of objectivity, let’s put aside all the emotion, and reveiw the facts that can be agreed upon, and see what ‘facts’ can be substantiated.
Let’s both agree not to call emotive assumptions “facts”.
You can’t substantiate your accusation that Sheriff Kirchmeier is a red neck, nor his deputies. (some of whom are Native American, Black and female). Not even the Native American protestors have accused the Sheriff or his deputies of any discrimination.
So let’s look at what we know and can substantiate.
1) Sheriff Kirchmeier is a career Law enforcement officer, with an unblemished record. He enjoys a reputation for being strict but fair, incorruptible, and progressive.
He just retired as a North Dakota Highway Patrol Captain, and was elected to his first term as Sheriff of the County in which he was born and raised.
Until the arrival of the pipeline, and the protestors, Sheriff Kirchmeier, and his officers enjoyrd good relations with local Native Americans.
Morton County Sheriffs department numbers 34 personnel.
The Sheriff’s department first became involved when responding to a call from the Pipeline Company that company site containing a great deal of valuable equipment, and storing explosives was under attack by hundreds of protestors intent on breaking down the defensive perimeter fences and ransacking, destroying equipment, and stealing explosives.
The company guards wwere heavily outnumbered.
None of these ‘facts’ are in dispute. The guards were hired to protect the company property. The demonstrators did tear down the fencing protecting the stores.
What happened next is subject to dispute.
The Guards claim some protestors were armed, used vehicles and horses to tear down the fencing and attacked the guards who were forced to defend themselves against violent criminals. The guards also claim the protestors arrived with savage dogs to engage the guard dogs.
The Protestors claim they were simply participating in a peaceful protest, when attacked by the company security using pepper spray and “attack dogs”.
The Protestors denied attacking the young Female deputy who was the first responder, claiming her injuries were inflicted when she attacked them. (One protestor gave a statement saying the “piglet” got what she deserved).
These are the two versions of the opening scenes in this conflict.
The question is who to believe ?
I would suggest that the truth probably runs something like this;
Of the several hundred demonstrators, the majority were sincere and peaceful. However, among the demonstrators were hard line radicals, agitators, criminals (one has confessed to trying to steal the explosives), and a number of individuals determined to provoke violence.
The radical element had always planned to destroy the fence,which was pretty substantial and provoke violence. The rest of the demonstrators got caught up in the excitement and in the ensuing chaos, hysteria prevailed.
In my opinion, the destruction of the fence and violent invasion of the site, was the catalyst for the violence. At no time the the Guards leave the compound perimeter.(or destroy the fence).
From that day on, the situation has escalated. The majority of sincere demonstrators, including the local Native Americans, have lost control of the demonstration due to the vast number of demonstrators from all over the country.
As Craig points out, most of the demonstrators are sincere and peaceful. Unfortunately, such events become the target for all kinds of radicals and crazies, with violent agenda. Even a small percentage in such a multitude is a lot of people, and can create a lot of grief.
Silent, I don’t know if you agree with my assessment or not, but I would suggest that my scenario does fit with the known facts.
You asked for some links to news sources to provide some balance.
http://www.princegeorgecitizen.com/sheriff-on-pipeline-protests-my-job-is-to-enforce-the-law-1.3262439
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2016/nov/14/dakota-access-pipeline-reservation-ranchers-strugg/
http://dailysignal.com/2016/11/17/the-facts-about-the-dakota-access-pipeline-that-protesters-dont-want-you-to-know/
I’ve included the article from the Daily Signal with some reluctance as it’s reporting is about as reliable as Fox News, but the facts are confirmed by court affidavits, and the Washington Post.
Sheriff Kirchmeier and the people of Morton County should never have been left responsible for this conflict. Local County law enforcement is neither equipped no trained for such a task.
Multi-State pipelines and Native American lands, are the responsibility of the Federal government who have agencies with the training, experience, equipment etc, to deal with such problems.
Sheriff Kirchmeier has made repeated requests for the US Marshal Service to take over, but the White House has vacillated and failed to act.
But there’s a human cost to all this. In the Washington times article is the story of Ernie and Beverly Fischer. These Native Americans are completely innocent victims of the conflict.
Even though Craig can’t find it in his heart to feel any compassion for their plight, I’m sure you must feel some sympathy for these unfortunate folk, who are watching their lives and rare animals being destroyed ?
(The terms collateral damage, is not selective)